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Could you please tell me if is this correct?
"Plusieur des grands magasins de New York ont...."
I have read elsewhere that after adverbs of quantity one uses DE; and also that if the (plural) noun is preceded by an adjective one uses DE instead of DES.
I am having real problems with DE and DES (when it come to the plural).
Thank you so much!

  • French -

    What I meant is: should it not have read: plusieurs DE grands magasins de New York ont...."
    I am really confused when it comes to using De and Des for plural nouns.
    Merci beaucoup pour m'aider.

  • French -

    I have read that one says:
    "j'ai des amis" BUT "j'ai DE jeunes amis".
    So, I though that it would be correct to say "plusieurs DES magasins" BUT
    "plusieurs De grands magasins"
    Is that correct or am I way off here?
    Thanks again.

  • French -

    il y a une différence car il y a un adjectif qui est placé avant le nom
    j'ai "des" amis
    j'ai "de bons" amis

    j'ai "des" voitures dans mon garage
    j'ai "de" belles voitures dans mon garage.

    So, I though that it would be correct to say "plusieurs DES magasins" BUT
    "plusieurs De grands magasins"

    ni l'un ni l'autre!
    on dit "plusieurs magasins"

  • French -

    Merci beaucoup, Jean Paul; j'aime beaucoup la langue francaise - elle est très belle.

  • French -

    I am sorry to bother you again, but actually the sentence that I was questioning came out of a French book. It said:
    "Plusieurs des grands magasins de New York ont des succursales......."
    I was questioning the "DES" in this case. As I understand it, it should have read: "Plusieurs DE grands magasins de New York....." because "magasins" is preceeded by "grands"


  • French -

    "plusieurs des"
    dans ce cas "des" est un article partitif (il indique une part d'un ensemble).
    il ne peut être remplacé par "de".

    on pourrait remplacer par:
    "un partie des grands magasins new-yorkais" (on ne sait pas combien de magasins)

    mais également "un grand nombre de magasins.." on les a comptés et peut en connaitre le nombre.

  • French -

    Actually, now I am totally at a loss.
    I have entered the sentence:
    "Many of the big department stores in New York have....." into a translating site and the translation I got was:
    "Plusieurs des grands magasins à New York ont....."
    Once again DES instead of DE, despite the adjective in front of the noun.

  • French -

    Ah, je comprends - merci beaucoup.

  • French -

    Thank you for using the Jiskha Homework Help Forum. Yes, "plusieurs DE grands magasins" because "de" is used in front of plural preceding adjectives. Didn't I give you the "chart" all about the Partitive and the use of "de" etc.? If you can't find it, I'll be happy to give it to you again.


  • French -

    P.S. Found it on March 7, 2008 at 11:14 p.m. (original posting)

    The Partitive: the idea of "some" or "any" with a noun is expressed in French by:

    de + the definite article of the noun.
    de beurre frais = some (any) fresh butter
    de la soie = some (any) silk
    de l'herbe verte = some (any) green grass
    des camions = some (any) trucks

    de, without the article after a negative.
    Je n'ai pas fait de fautes. = I didn't make any mistakes.
    Il n'a guère d'amis. = He has hardly any friends.

    de, without the article , when an adjective precedes a plural noun.
    de vieux souliers = some old shoes
    de longues rues = long streets

    de, with or without the areticle, when an adjective precedes a singular noun.
    *du bon cidre OR
    de bon cidre. = some good cider.

    * This is the more common form in the spoken language in France today.

    NOTE: 1. The words for "some" and any" must be expressed in French, and must be repeated before each noun even though they are often omitted in English.

    Voulez-vous du poisson? Non, je préfère de la viande et des légumes. = Do you want some fish? No, I prefer meat and vegetables.

    2. Special uses of the Partitive are:
    a. The definite article is retained before an adjective in the plural when the adjective is considered part of the noun.
    des jeunes filles = girls
    des petits pains = rolls
    des petits pois = green peas
    b. After "ne...que" (only), de is used with the article, provided there is no adjective preceding the noun.
    Nous ne lisons que des romans. = We read only novels.
    c. After "sans" (without), "" (neither...nor), and expressions taking de, the partitive is omitted.
    C'est un livre sans images. = It is a book without any pictures.
    Nanette ne boit ni thé ni café. = Nancy drinks neither tea nor coffee.
    As-tu besoin de billets? = Do you need (any) tickets?

    The idea of "some" or "any" is translated by "en" if the noun is omitted. "En," like personal pronoun objects, precedes the verb, except in affirmative commands.
    A-t-il écrit ds lettres? = Has he written any letters?
    Oui, il en a écrit. = Yes, he has written some.
    Ecrivez-en. = Write some

    ADVERBS OF QUANTITY: Certain adverbns expressing quantity are followed by "de," without the article, before a noun.

    assez de (enough), autant de (as much, as many), beaucoup de (much, many), combien de (how much, how many), combien de (how much, how many), moins de (less, fewer), peu de (little, few), plus de (more), que de (how much, how many, used only in exclamations), tant de (so much, so many), trop de (too much, too many)

    Avez-vous assez de temps et d'énergie? = Have you enough time and energy?
    Que de fois je l'ai grondé! = How many times I've scolded him!

    There are other things with "de" but I doubt you are ready at this time.
    Nouns of Quantity
    Nouns of Material
    Possession and Relationship with "de" = you might be ready for this; let me know (Le livre de Marie, etc.)

  • French -

    Merci beaucoup. Oui, je suis prêt pour
    "possessions and relationships" et, peut-être, aussi pour "nouns of quantity" et "nouns of material".

  • French -

    Thank you soooooooooooo much for the explanation. No, it must have been a different "Anonymous" you gave that chart to; I really appreciate your help!

  • French -

    I think I'm ready for "possession" and "relationship"; perhaps even for "nouns of quantity" and "nouns of material". I appreciate any help I can get. French is a beautiful language but it can be confusing sometimes.....

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