Posted by ~christina~ on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 at 7:35pm.
note: if I've become an nuisance you can just ignore this
apparently I have become annoying so I won't speak about anything anymore.
Fos degree...well...this is interesting to speak about.
I don't know but it's very very very unlikely to get a job here even if you have a masters degree in FOS unless someone dies or retires (that sounds really horrible but it's the truth..)
There are 3 fields of FOS at my school.
1. criminology (hair, blood (can't believe it but you actually have to donate your own blood)
2. molecular biology DNA (I have no interest whatsoever in DNA and I really don't care if it is really in demand and pays good)
3. toxicology basically chemicals in the body and etc.(not interesting to me either)
I guess I seem ambitious but I don't think it's ever too early to make a plan.. I'll just say it..My ultimate goal is a phD..(I would be most happy in chem of course) I don't know but it would probably be easier to obtain a job if you had a higher degree, thus my interest in persuing a higher degree. =) (most of my relatives seem to all have a chemistry phD but are unwilling to actually help me out unfortunately [I wish they could be willing to help me out in chem like you but well they are sort of selfish yes, they are [they could at least give me their e-mail but instead they tell me to look up stuff on the internet.. =( and this makes me sad(and the one who has a phD in organic chem is retired!)]
Sorry for digressing but they get me irritated to say the least. Getting back onto topic I'm not sure if you can get a phD if you don't have a masters in chemistry. Is it possible?
The reason I say that I'm going to take all the chem classes necessary because the chem classes that I have to complete for the FOS degree at my college are:
gen chem 1 & 2
Organic chem 1 & 2
Biochem 1 & 2
Physical chem
Quantivative analysis
Instrumental analysis
guess the only thing missing is inorganic chem and we don't have that at our school but if we did I can bet we'd have to take that too.
~christina~
I found the response and copied it to this page. I can make some comments. First, it is possible to obtain a Ph. D. without having a master's degree. I know many people who go straight through from a B. S. in chemistry to a Ph. D. bypassing the M.S. (or M.A.). Most do it for the time--generally one can save about a year's time. Yes, you lack inorganic chemistry and most chemistry departments require "a chemistry elective" which runs the gamut depending upon the specialties of the faculty. But you have most of the chemistry courses needed for a chemistry degree at most schools provided the courses you took for the FOS degree are regular chemistry courses and not touched up for FOS majors. I suspect that may be one problem if you talk to another school; i.e., they will want some kind of confirmation that you took regular chemistry courses. Since your school has no formal chemistry degree, it may be difficult to satisfy their feelings that you may have had a watered down course in chemistry. I'm not suggesting your courses were not rigorous; I'm simply stating a fact that is likely to come up and it will be harder to convince others ESPECIALLY since your school offers no degree in chemistry. It is never too late to make plans or to have a few dreams. A Ph. D. in chemistry is nice but they aren't the mecca they were at one time. When I graduated with a Ph. D. I interviewed about a dozen places and received offers from all of them. In fact, I received two offers from each of two places I never visited and they begged me to visit. I didn't go because I had no intention of taking the job and I thought it was a waste of my time and their money. However, they thought I might be talked into the job if I made the visit. I could go anywhere I wanted. That's simply not true now. The last statistics I saw, and they are a few years old, I think the ratio was about one offer for every 7-10 interviews and it was tough to get interviews. I don't know where you are with respect to your FOS degree, but if you are within a year or so, it may be easier to finish the degree (if nothing else to have a cushion) while you make plans to transfer to another university. If you have counselor's at your school, I recommend you talk to them about the things you have asked about on this board. You can also talk to an advisor with a university that offers a Ph. D. in chemistry and ask them about the acceptability of your courses for the FOS degree. Sometimes a course catalog description is all you need to let them know the content of the courses you have taken. It might not be out of place to visit a university, if one is nearby, and talk to the profs/department head. You could ask about the availability of teaching assistantships and/or scholarships. Some of them pay good salaries; especially when compared to the $750/year I started with. I hope this information is helpful.
I'm in my second year here so I was thinking of finishing up and doing something in chem since I don't feel that I will want a masters in FOS if it's not what I really want to do.
But as to the watering down, I don't know since I've never taken chemistry courses elsewhere.Alot of people have dropped out of the course already because they can't handle the chemistry. And they mention that it is easier elsewhere to take chemistry. There were only 7 people graduated with a FOS deg (out of about 300 students total in my "grade" and only 1/4 are currently left) It's interesting how I can't have a minor since I don't have any credits left over after taking the course to allow that.
I found the response and copied it to this page. I can make some comments. First, it is possible to obtain a Ph. D. without having a master's degree. I know many people who go straight through from a B. S. in chemistry to a Ph. D. bypassing the M.S. (or M.A.). Don't you have to be highly intelligent to actually do this? I'm not sure I would qualify as a genius Most do it for the time--generally one can save about a year's time. Yes, you lack inorganic chemistry and most chemistry departments require "a chemistry elective" which runs the gamut depending upon the specialties of the faculty. But you have most of the chemistry courses needed for a chemistry degree at most schools provided the courses you took for the FOS degree are regular chemistry courses and not touched up for FOS majors.In gen chem we went up to the last chapter in the end of the book and started to do some organic chem as well (not sure if that's watered down I suspect that may be one problem if you talk to another school; i.e., they will want some kind of confirmation that you took regular chemistry courses. Since your school has no formal chemistry degree, it may be difficult to satisfy their feelings that you may have had a watered down course in chemistry. how would I do that? take a test..I hope notI'm not suggesting your courses were not rigorous; I'm simply stating a fact that is likely to come up and it will be harder to convince others ESPECIALLY since your school offers no degree in chemistry. It is never too late to make plans or to have a few dreams.I still like to think if of it as never too early A Ph. D. in chemistry is nice but they aren't the mecca they were at one time. When I graduated with a Ph. D. I interviewed about a dozen places and received offers from all of them. maybe it's become quite common nowdays ? In fact, I received two offers from each of two places I never visited and they begged me to visit. I didn't go because I had no intention of taking the job and I thought it was a waste of my time and their money. However, they thought I might be talked into the job if I made the visit. I could go anywhere I wanted. That's simply not true now. The last statistics I saw, and they are a few years old, I think the ratio was about one offer for every 7-10 interviews and it was tough to get interviews. I don't know where you are with respect to your FOS degree but if you are within a year or so, it may be easier to finish the degree (if nothing else to have a cushion), like I said above, 2nd yr and taking second year of organic now and I have no intention of transfering but I was thinking ahead to after this since I don't intend to go into the masters program for FOS since that in my opinion would be a waste of money while you make plans to transfer to another university. alas, I'm only in a college If you have counselor's at your school, I recommend you talk to them about the things you have asked about on this board. You can also talk to an advisor with a university that offers a Ph. D. in chemistry and ask them about the acceptability of your courses for the FOS degree. well, the reason I'm saying this here intstead of going up to the counselor an stating that I would like to go for a phD is that everyone I have spoken to before tells me that I am over ambitious since I don't even have a bachelors degree which is why I'm thinking of actually speaking to a counselor after or just before I get my bachelors degree for FOS. So I decided to just voice what I was thinking of doing here first, just in case I sound crazySometimes a course catalog description is all you need to let them know the content of the courses you have taken. It might not be out of place to visit a university, if one is nearby, and talk to the profs/department head. I'd have to shop around so to speak since I'm not sure which school is best for chemistry here in NYC You could ask about the availability of teaching assistantships and/or scholarships. Some of them pay good salaries; especially when compared to the $750/year I started with.my organic professor stated that there were reasearch oportunities (in chemistry) but I'm not confident enough in my chemistry knowledge and I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself doing this I hope this information is helpful.
I'll try to take these one at a time.
Don't you have to be highly intelligent to actually do this? I'm not sure I would qualify as a genius
No, you don't need to be a genius to do this; however, your new advisor at the new university might balk somewhat since you would be coming in with chemistry courses but no chemistry degree. It's mostly a matter of confidence and the time available. I took a M.A. degree in chemistry and it cost me over a year; however, there were other factors driving my decision. First, I didn't want to feel rushed, and second the draft board was getting ready to call me in and I wanted a sheet of paper to show as proof I had finished "something" rather than coming back and trying to pick up after two-three years of absence from the school scene. In effect, it let me start over with a fresh start with a M. A. I felt much more comfortable that way.
In gen chem we went up to the last chapter in the end of the book and started to do some organic chem as well (not sure if that's watered down
how would I do that? take a test..I hope not
I still like to think if of it as never too early
Since I don't know your course content nor your performance, I can't comment on the quality of your courses. I mentioned it only because I'm sure you will be questioned about it. One way is to take one or more exams. I have seen that done. Another way is to take a semester of courses and see how you do. And you are right, of course. It is never too early nor too late to plan.
maybe it's become quite common nowdays ?
While it is true that there are more Ph. D. chemists in the world today it is not that common. The reason for the job market shift is the market place. When I graduated research was the family word for top notch corporations. Everyone carried out research by legions of chemists (many with Ph. D's) and some of those companies that offered me a job couldn't tell me what my job would be if I accepted their offer to come to work for them. Why? They really didn't need me for a specific task but they liked to brag about the number of Ph. D. chemists they had on their payroll AND they didn't want a job to show up around the corner and not have anyone free to tackle it. In one word, they were buying insurance. None of that is true now. The bottom line for most companies, including major corporations, is the dollar. Research costs money so out goes the research. It's true that some is still being done but not to a large extent. Other countries are passing the USA by in the research department. So the market place has shrunk.
like I said above, 2nd yr and taking second year of organic now and I have no intention of transferring but I was thinking ahead to after this since I don't intend to go into the masters program for FOS since that in my opinion would be a waste of money
That sounds like a good plan. And it provides a cushion.
well, the reason I'm saying this here intstead of going up to the counselor an stating that I would like to go for a phD is that everyone I have spoken to before tells me that I am over ambitious since I don't even have a bachelors degree which is why I'm thinking of actually speaking to a counselor after or just before I get my bachelors degree for FOS. So I decided to just voice what I was thinking of doing here first, just in case I sound crazy. I understand but let me tell you something. Remember it is never to early to make plans--you said so earlier!!. Know when I made plans for a Ph. D. in chemistry? A junior in high school. Well, not really hard core plans because I still had 2 years of high school and four of college to even get into a graduate program. But I told everyone that my plans called for me to finish high school, then I intended to attend four years of college majoring in chemistry, then I intended to get a Ph. D. in chemistry. And I had people tell me I was overly ambitious, overly optimistic, must have too big an ego, and a number of other unkind things. The truth is I did NOT know that I could get a Ph. D. I didn't even know I could get a B. S. degree but I DID know I had to try. One other thing I've learned is that one need not be the most brilliant person in the world to make it through certain courses. I've found that hard work and persistence can substitute for some of the brilliance. So don't let anyone discourage you. Think your plans through thoroughly, then be prepared to work hard.
No, you don't need to be a genius to do this; however, your new advisor at the new university might balk somewhat since you would be coming in with chemistry courses but no chemistry degree.
If I haven't taken any chem courses somewhere else and don't know anyone, I was thinking that I should do the masters program so at least I know some people at the other school and (also so I get to do some more chem to refresh what I learned before)I think that would be better than just coming into the school to work on a phD
I'm sure you will be questioned about it. One way is to take one or more exams. I have seen that done. Another way is to take a semester of courses and see how you do. And you are right, of course. It is never too early nor too late to plan
what exams are you speaking of exactly? I know to enter a masters program you have to take the GRE exam but I think I would have to practice that ALOT since I didn't do so well on the SAT but I do better in normal classes
While it is true that there are more Ph. D. chemists in the world today it is not that common. The reason for the job market shift is the market place. When I graduated research was the family word for top notch corporations. Everyone carried out research by legions of chemists (many with Ph. D's) and some of those companies that offered me a job couldn't tell me what my job would be if I accepted their offer to come to work for them. Why? They really didn't need me for a specific task but they liked to brag about the number of Ph. D. chemists they had on their payroll AND they didn't want a job to show up around the corner and not have anyone free to tackle it. In one word, they were buying insurance. None of that is true now. The bottom line for most companies, including major corporations, is the dollar. Research costs money so out goes the research. It's true that some is still being done but not to a large extent. Other countries are passing the USA by in the research department. So the market place has shrunk
I was thinking of teaching but, from what (little) my relatives did say since some teach at universities was that you need to go through a class before you can teach. Is this true? (based on how some of my professors teach in other courses I don't believe they took a class)
I understand but let me tell you something. Remember it is never to early to make plans--you said so earlier!!. Know when I made plans for a Ph. D. in chemistry? A junior in high school. Well, not really hard core plans because I still had 2 years of high school and four of college to even get into a graduate program. But I told everyone that my plans called for me to finish high school, then I intended to attend four years of college majoring in chemistry, then I intended to get a Ph. D. in chemistry. And I had people tell me I was overly ambitious, overly optimistic, must have too big an ego, and a number of other unkind things. The truth is I did NOT know that I could get a Ph. D. I didn't even know I could get a B. S. degree but I DID know I had to try. One other thing I've learned is that one need not be the most brilliant person in the world to make it through certain courses. I've found that hard work and persistence can substitute for some of the brilliance. So don't let anyone discourage you. Think your plans through thoroughly, then be prepared to work hard.
I know that I said that but when your own friends are telling you the same thing that others are, you sort of become paranoid of telling anyone your plans. I think that they are underambitious though.
Wow, you did plan early...I do know that once I plan something I will stick to it unless something really makes me change it. (I was planning to study to be a vet for 15yrs untill I found out the time it takes, the small chances that you will get accepted to grad school, and the icing on the cake was the fact that it again takes money to open a buisness and the chances you will be successful are close to none)
Okay, I won't let anyone discourage me. =D
And I think I work hard already but there is always room for improvement.
Thanks Dr.Bob
If I haven't taken any chem courses somewhere else and don't know anyone, I was thinking that I should do the masters program so at least I know some people at the other school and (also so I get to do some more chem to refresh what I learned before)I think that would be better than just coming into the school to work on a phD
That's an option to discuss with your new advisor when the time comes.
what exams are you speaking of exactly? I know to enter a masters program you have to take the GRE exam but I think I would have to practice that ALOT since I didn't do so well on the SAT but I do better in normal classes
Actually I was talking about specific course exams. I've been out of touch for awhile so I don't know all the rules about GRE, SAT, GMAT, etc.
I was thinking of teaching but, from what (little) my relatives did say since some teach at universities was that you need to go through a class before you can teach. Is this true? (based on how some of my professors teach in other courses I don't believe they took a class)
That might be nice and it might even be desirable but it is not anything written in stone. For example, who teaches a specialty class that is being offered for the first time anywhere in the country? Usually the person that designed the course. And he/she has no experience at teaching the course. My experience is that a GOOD teacher can teach anything, even subjects s/he knows little about. Good teachers are good because they read about the subject, they take care in making their notes, they stick to the subject in class, they treat the students with respect and dignity, they know how to present material clearly, and they stay AT LEAST one jump ahead of the students. Finaly, a good teacher knows when s/he is in over her/his head and doesn't go there in the first place.
I know that I said that but when your own friends are telling you the same thing that others are, you sort of become paranoid of telling anyone your plans. I think that they are underambitious though.
Wow, you did plan early...I do know that once I plan something I will stick to it unless something really makes me change it. (I was planning to study to be a vet for 15yrs untill I found out the time it takes, the small chances that you will get accepted to grad school, and the icing on the cake was the fact that it again takes money to open a buisness and the chances you will be successful are close to none)
Okay, I won't let anyone discourage me. =D
Interesting. At the young age of 42, I too decided to become a vet---until I talked to a vet friend of mine. I figured that with a Ph. D. in chemistry I could swing it but he was quick to tell me that I had zero chance of getting into the schools BECAUSE I wouldn't be a decent vet for at least age 49 or 50 and the schools wanted to prepared vets for the long haul--not a short span of 15 years or so. In addition, there are no vet schools in the state and the out of state schools wouldn't give my application a second glance. So I dropped that idea fast.
Actually I was talking about specific course exams. I've been out of touch for awhile so I don't know all the rules about GRE, SAT, GMAT, etc.
Do you mean that I ask them to give me their tests to take?
My experience is that a GOOD teacher can teach anything, even subjects s/he knows little about. Good teachers are good because they read about the subject, they take care in making their notes, they stick to the subject in class, they treat the students with respect and dignity, they know how to present material clearly, and they stay AT LEAST one jump ahead of the students. Finaly, a good teacher knows when s/he is in over her/his head and doesn't go there in the first place.
I think it always helps to know what your talking about just in case someone asks why this or that rxn for example cannot happen. And a good teacher has to be willing to teach you untill you get the concept. (My organic teacher is one of the most dedicated people I know and is what I would call a good teacher) I have to say that you fall into the category of good teacher as well, since you're willing to explain things to students
Interesting. At the young age of 42, I too decided to become a vet---until I talked to a vet friend of mine. I figured that with a Ph. D. in chemistry I could swing it but he was quick to tell me that I had zero chance of getting into the schools BECAUSE I wouldn't be a decent vet for at least age 49 or 50 and the schools wanted to prepared vets for the long haul--not a short span of 15 years or so. In addition, there are no vet schools in the state and the out of state schools wouldn't give my application a second glance. So I dropped that idea fast.
This IS interesting..but why did you want to be a vet all of a sudden? It seems to say that you weren't happy what you were doing. If you were happy doing what you were doing at the time there shouldn't have been any thoughts of changing careers, I would think. The reason I wanted to be a vet was because I love animals (except monkeys).
Just a side note, today after I was finished with organic lab, I noticed that there was a flyer in my school for an "Interviewing Conference" (science department) and everyone from the science department was there including the new head of the department but what I found interesting was that it was an "event" to search for new teachrs, and also that I only saw one room being cleared out to make room and I think it will be a challenge for anyone wanting a job to say the least.
I don't know but the interview process isn't usually like this right?, where to find a new teacher a "interview" day is set up where all the science department teachers host an event, Or is it always like this?
Thanks Dr.Bob
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